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More maths?

  • 1.  More maths?

    Posted 06-11-2014 16:29
    I teach operations research models and methods at a university business school, it's tough material sometimes, some will call it rather maths than anything else. My students complain that this should not be part of a business curriculum. What is your take on that?


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    Marco Luebbecke
    Profess_OR
    RWTH Aachen University
    Aachen
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  • 2.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-11-2014 20:31
    The answer is very different depending on whether the course is an elective or not.

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    Leonardo Lopes
    Advanced Analytics Specialist
    SAS Institute
    Cary NC
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  • 3.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 06:35
    I have a lot of such courses, some compulsory, some not. We are a business school with a quantitative orientation. Let us only speak about the compulsory course. You must pass them, otherwise you cannot graduate. Mathematical optimization (applied of course, but theoretically well-founded, not avoiding rigor and formal correctness) is part of such courses. I would say: right so. It is a good idea to make business students "think", be "creative", also in mathematical terms, have "hard times finding solutions", rather than pretending the world could be explained in case studies [I am choosing provocative language deliberately to make my point].


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    Marco Luebbecke
    Profess_OR
    RWTH Aachen University
    Aachen
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  • 4.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-13-2014 16:05
    Ihave also taught Stochastic Processes (online) for a Master Degree in Decision Engineering given by the Universidad Rey Juan Carlos. Studends are from different nations and from different undegraduate formation, including military officers, sociologists, business and, of course, engineers. I know that most of them suffer with the theory and practice of DT Markov Chains but te usually approve the one week intensive course and, in some cases, some of them select the theme for their Final Work (the replacement of the Magister Thesis) which should be defended before a jury to obtain their M2 degree.

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    Alfredo Russo
    Honorary Professor
    Buenos Aires
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  • 5.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-14-2014 08:32
    I have seen a drift of MBA programs away from quant courses, and in favor of "soft" ones, to the great relief of students who live in math-paranoia. Unfortunately, the lack of quant content translates into students who lack an understanding of "quant data" that they encounter. My solution to this problem has been to teach the quant courses with very little "math" (theory, development, etc) but a large dose of layman's discussion of assumptions, pitfalls, strengths and weaknesses of the methods and an in-depth analysis of the results.
    Unless the individual student want a career in, or feels the need for Analytics (to include Big Data, simulation and complex models), this approach is sufficient. We should recognize that most MBAs will rarely move to more advanced quant tools than Excel based pivot tables, optimization and statistics apps. It is much more beneficial to have a "final project" based on a real issue in a real company than burying the student in a pile of math.

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    Alex Loewenthal
    Chief Engineer
    ATK
    Westlake Village CA
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  • 6.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 11:24
    Are the students not exposed to a variety of courses in a general business curriculum, such as Marketing, Organizational Behavior, Labor Relations, Finance, etc.? I would imagine OR or Applied Math surely belongs in that toolkit. As a long-time practitioner, I can vouch for its value in the industry.

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    Chandrashekhar Khot
    Optimization Consultant
    Towne Air Freight
    Plano TX
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  • 7.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 07:42
    Here is my 2 cents.

    In today's business world, Analytics is really taking hold.  

    It is changing how we in corporate think.  But it also changes things front line people need to do.  

    My company is probably on the leading edge.   Candidates with a mix of business and analytics skills are in high demand.   One cannot achieve the analytics skills without the courses you mentioned.

    Your students will be happy they took the "maths" course.  They will be able to resolve issues in the real world that others cannot.

    Those are my thoughts.   Good topic.

    Jack


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    Jack Levis
    Director of Process Management
    UPS
    Timonium MD
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  • 8.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 08:19
    One of the classes I teach is what we call Management Science, we also offer an econometrics class. In the MS class, I focus on the application of models (linear programming and statistical) to business problems. This allows the students to see how the models are used by businesses to test ideas, strategies, etc. The key that I have found is to talk to them about the use, both when to use and how to use. I spend very little time on the theory behind some of the models, since we require them to complete a statistics class in the math department that covers the theory. By giving them real world problems to solve, it helps them understand why and how to use these models.

    For undergraduate students you have to engage them and the best way is to help them see how they can apply the techniques and learning.

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    Joseph Thornton
    Assistant Professor of Management
    Bellarmine University
    Louisville KY
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  • 9.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 09:54
    Aloha Marco,

    I just finished an OR MBA program.  From my point of view, I recommend that you keep pushing forward.  OR certainly belongs in business classes.  My own first encounter with OR was with SPSS, back in 2002, while I was pursuing my BBA.

    I cannot think of a single business function that cannot be done better with some regard to optimization as opposed to having none.

    If business students are not interested in optimally utilizing scarce resources, I would further recommend that they consider a different career.  That is what we get paid to do and you are teaching them one of the most powerful tools known to exist.





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    Jason Orso
    MBA Candidate
    Pittsburgh PA
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  • 10.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 10:48
    I too taught in a B-school, and I heard the same sorts of comments, from both undergraduates and MBAs. There's an old saying here that "it's every soldier's right to complain" (in fact, I think that's in the Uniform Code of Military Justice). The analogy is that every student has the right to complain (and I have the right to ignore them). :-)

    That said, I think the depth and rigor of quant courses should depend on the audience. I taught introductory LP (and in some cases a wee bit of IP) models, for instance. For a course aimed at students majoring in management science, I would go into a fair bit of depth (though not to the point of proving the Theorem of the Alternative). For generic business students, my goal was (a) to stimulate some quantitative thinking, (b) make them intelligent consumers of models (cooked up by consultants or their organization's OR group), including (c) teaching them something about the limitations of models, and (d) hopefully enable them to build some simple models for problems that they might reasonably be expected to solve by themselves (and that might plausibly enounter). That's pretty much in descending order of importance.

    For the general business majors, I treated LP solvers, simulation programs etc. as black boxes. Insert the model, turn the crank, get the output, figure out what it's telling you. They don't need to know how to solve an LP; they just need to understand what unbounded and infeasible mean, how to interpret output, how to spot that alternative optima may exist (and why all optimal solutions are not equally good in practice).

    Unfortunately, the least important of my goals (being able to write and solve LPs, simulation models, Markov chain or queueing models, ...) proves to be the easiest to test.

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    Paul Rubin
    Professor Emeritus
    Michigan State University
    East Lansing MI
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  • 11.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 12:16
    I have the same problem, teaching OR in an MBA mostly  to graduated Engineers. But we have two courses, one mandatory, covering LP, NLP, IP and MILP and the other elective, covering Stochastic Processes and Dynamic Programming. Both are a nightmare for non engineers taking the MBA and are quite acceptable for engineers of differente branches, some of whom has not OR in their undergraduate curricula: Chemical, Electrical, Mechanical and the like. I think that OR is good for an MBA because is the theoretical support of decision making. I agree that it represents more maths for some of my students and the first exposition to Maths for others, but I also think that in theese times is inevitable to teach some Maths to everybody in the undergraduate level. That is why one University in which I've used to teach Production Management for a Business degree, has added a chapter on Linear Programming in the syllabus of the only Maths course. Of course LP is taught using short examples of Simplex and no software.

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    Alfredo Russo
    Honorary Professor
    Buenos Aires
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  • 12.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 12:24
    Marco,

    My short answer would be that at its core, being a business manager is all about making decisions. How many successful managers do the students think make decisions by only guessing or using gut feel? I would argue that the most successful managers gather as much information as possible, analyze alternatives, and only then choose the best alternative. Like it or not, the proper analysis of alternatives often requires "math," and whether or not the manager is doing the analysis himself or herself, he or she needs to know enough about how the analysis is done to understand the results and ask the right questions. Widespread "math" goes on at companies every day. It's becoming more important than ever, but the good news is that with the power of spreadsheets, much of this "math" is now accessible to the common manager.

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    Charles Munson
    Professor
    Washington State University
    Pullman WA
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  • 13.  RE: More maths?

    Posted 06-12-2014 19:30
    Thank you all for your thoughts. I am impressed. And I am really, really tempted to tweet and quote you all. The world must learn about these opinions. When I say, you need "it", it's ok. When I give practical examples that you need "it", some start to believe me. But when this world's business leaders say that you need "it", then it is for real! Great. Looking forward to my next classes...


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    Marco Luebbecke
    Profess_OR
    RWTH Aachen University
    Aachen
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